Active TopicsActive Topics  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp   RegisterRegister  LoginLogin
General / Guftaguu - E - Aam
 Hansot.com Kyaa baat hai! : General / Guftaguu - E - Aam
Subject Topic: Islamic Civilisation: Why did we fall? Post ReplyPost New Topic
Author
Message << Prev Topic | Next Topic >>
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2006-17-June at 12:06pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

DATED: 21st JUMADA AL-ULA 1427 A.H.

As-salam alaikum,

The Ummat-an-Nabi arose from an imperceptible spark, in a remote desert far from the established centres of civilisation, & it blazed searingly across the all-encompassing horizons. As quick as it had appeared, the comet had soon been transformed into a shooting-star!

The great Muslim thinkers & the poor benighted masses, have occasionally managed to lift their heads from their present condition of stupor breathing in the air of jahilliyat. In the region of the Indian subcontinent, Al hind wa Sind, the stinging slap of 1857 C.E. fostered an intellectual & civilisational phoenix-like rebirth from the dying embers of a trail-blazing Mughal superpower. 

The asking of these evergreen questions must become a matter of habit if we are to avoid a relapse into servitude. 

http://www.islamonline.net/English/Living_Shariah/Refinement OfTheHeart/advice/2006/06/01.shtml

 

Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2006-29-October at 2:54pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

Economy: Dictatorial Rulers & their estrangement from the people

There is a popular saying in the west, in regard to which of the rival parties has the election's crucial vote-winning policy:

 "It's the economy stupid!" 

At the end of the day, for the majority of people, the amount of money that they have personally in their pockets is the deciding factor, far more important than the rarified debates about abstract policies & values. The only other things that the cynical politicians use, playing the public like musical instruments, are fear & greed.

The Ummat-an-Nabi is in a pitiful economic state relative to the rest of mankind, even though the Muslim nations are strategically sitting astride the centre of the world, & have huge & diverse natural resources. The sheer diversity of our human capital resources alone, should make us the most flexible & adaptable qaum. 

A famous saying is that:

"the fish rots from the head first."   

I think this is one of the factors that goes a long way in explaining our current dilemma. Allah has given us brains to use, & the Kitab'Allah constantly exhorts us to ponder & reflect, & we are supposed to avoid the behaviour of dumb driven cattle! But do we listen & learn?

The rulers have entrenched themselves by hook or by crook, regardless of merit. The feudal elite surround themselves by a coterie of acolytes, the fawning "yes-men". Any threat to their privileged position by able individuals is sabotaged e.g. by restricting education & controlling appointments & the media etc. In dictatorships the mukhabarat (secret police) & terrified populace inform on their neighbours. The small feudal scum elite is too busy fighting its own people to have any energy left over for positive projects. The only laws that are respected are,

"the law of the jungle, & might is right. Me against my brother, my brother & I against our cousins, & our cousins & us against everyone else!"

Each group is so short-sighted that the wider good of the people is not visualised. Knowledge, skills & technology are closely guarded lest they empower outsiders. Corruption reigns as wealth is accumalated by unjust means & favours bought & sold. This excessively tribal society is backward & anti-Islamic.

 True Islam is  revolutionary & empowering, where all persons are family, & must not be implemented or understood at any cost. The only Islam allowed is the pujari one, where it does not matter which holy book you read & chant in an unintelligible language, or what empty rituals you follow zealously, the Quran & Sunna could be easily supplanted amongst these worshippers by the Vedas or the Bible. 

The end result is that there is not enough talent fostered to compete with the rest of the world. The unproductive nation just consumes other nation's products at extortionate prices. There is no shura or consultation, where the poor man blessed with intelligence & wisdom can contribute to his nation. The talented rich scum-elite,

 "who know the price of everything & the value of nothing destroy themselves in hedonistic excesses."

The uneducated rich spoilt brats, told from childhood that they are perfect, who are used to having their every wish catered for, due to the merchants being teriffied of their family, are not used to the sharp crafty business tricks of the outside world.

Is this the case here? You are free to make up your mind ...

       http://politics.guardian.co.uk/foi/story/0,,1933764,00.html

Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2006-30-October at 3:27am | IP Logged Quote imranj

My take is that we should balance both our religion and education , but always keep and give deen a upper hand, and always try to excel is most fields.

And also since we have abandoned our Islamic ways Allah has removed his blessing upon us. We should again gain his goodwill, so that he can help us restore our previous position.

By this i mean, we should go to shamelessness or being to extreme, as both will hurt us and such is happening now.
Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2006-30-October at 5:38pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

Be careful. With respect, surely the study of "religion" especially Islam, in any meaningful sense is incomplete without "education" .

Just because the "West" dominates the world, we must never fall into the trap of separating the deen from the duniya. It is a great threat for the unsuspecting Momin, once one adopts their terminology without discrimination (furqan), then one automatically adopts their mindset .

The Deen al-Islam is a transcendental framework of divine guidance, & it does not need to change, relative to changes in time or place.

Relativism is one of the most poisonous & insidious ideas that has afflicted mankind.

 In my view, Muslims unlike others, do not believe that you can artificially divide a secular profane education from the divine ilm. As we ascend the levels of true comprehension of the creation i.e. educating ourselves, we ipso facto reach the lowest levels of ruhani ilm .  

We are so lost because we separate the deen from the duniya. One just has to recollect our history as per the exhortation of the qalam'Allah.The learned Sufis gathered in droves in the land of Ibrahim-khalil. Thence forward, the previously ignorant, ordinary men & women of the Ummat-an-Nabi were inspired to reach great heights of civilisation. Oh, for the Bayt al-Hikmah, ordinary citizens amassing personal libraries, & the golden age of Harun al-Rashid - what a contrast !   



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2006-09-November at 4:48pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

An interesting angle.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=11195035473 82&pagename=IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FF atwaEAskTheScholar



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2006-23-November at 3:46am | IP Logged Quote imranj

Agreed.
Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2006-24-November at 1:53pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

Education: The lost culture of reading

As-salam alaikum,

One of the reasons why the ancient Muslim Ummah of our respected ancestors achieved lofty heights, was due to its love of the reading culture.

" IQRA" as angel Jibrail asked our beloved Rasool'ullah (S.A.W). 

The rapidly expanding Muslim world had an Achilles heel in its heavily centralised nature, & an excess of wealth. In its earliest days, each individual took it upon themselves to be potential all-rounders i.e. scholar, soldier, merchant & Amir etc.

 As the wealth poured in, the earliest Muslims became the aristocracy. These Muslims started to want to hold onto their new found lands, treasure, titles, learning, wives & children etc. The hadith of the Prophet (S.A.W) in regard to fearing not poverty, but wealth for his followers had come to fruition!

 The role of "defenders of Islam" was despised as being too dirty for the refined, elegant & cerebral scum-elite. Thus the specialised institution of the paid professional Turkish warrior-slaves arose e.g. Mamluks.

   The specialisation of centrally funded institutions for higher education also came to pass e.g. universities. The vast lands of the expanded Ummah under a single common authority, allowed for the incredible growth of mercantile activity.

 The ports & cities burgeoned with growing mountains of gold. The scum-elite who had once been responsible for the defence of the Ummah, were too busy, intoxicated by the pursuit of an unrestricted hedonist lifestyle, paradise on earth. Short-sighted greed & cannibalistic infighting destroyed even the ephemeral aspects of unity of a common purpose.

      The insular arrogance of this myopic centralised state, & its rich ports attracted the eyes of the barbarian invaders. As ever the lessons of history since Babylon, the lands of the lotus-eaters was ripe for conquest by a disciplined force of starving warriors.

The port's life-blood of trade & the resulting gold was drained white, & they were bled to death as cattle by a thousand mosquito bites. The barbarian hordes would not leave the maddened beast alone, in fact their rapaciousness led further inland to the capitals & their treasuries. Even the simple people of the countryside were not left in peace. As the commercial revenues dried up, the Sultans could not pay their Turkish mercenaries, & there was a general collapse in the centrally funded institutions of society. 

The universities collapsed as the professors were not paid, & their lives were in constant danger. The scholars & merchants fled in all directions, by land & by sea. What precious knowledge & wealth that could not be carried, was abandoned to the mercy of the invaders. The years of blitzkrieg destroyed the Islamic heartland. Learning & education became to be considered as an irrelevant luxury for the surviving people.

Can we, their descendants, the Ummah of the fifteenth Hijri century, recover some of that lost glory in an Islamic renaissance today? 

Only if we learn the lessons of history - insha'Allah...    

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/4365958.stm



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-27-February at 4:24pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

I think the following lengthy article captures the current weakness of the Muslim world perfectly ! The only hope is a return to the egalitarian innovative "iqra" based system of early Islam as opposed to the jahil tribalism of pre-Islamic Arabia. Wherever egalitarianism & respect for education is strong, there you will find the flickering embers of an Islamic renaissance. It is sad that the Americans understand our weakness very well, but we have abandoned the revolutionary spirit, & are too short-termist & jahil.

Unless we change ourselves, we deserve everything we get

OPINION
Why Arabs Lose Wars


Fighting as you train, and the impact of culture on Arab military effectiveness


Former US Diplomat NORVELL B. De ATKINE wrote this article for “American Diplomacy” to whom we are grateful for allowing us permission to re-print.


ARABIC-SPEAKING ARMIES have been generally ineffective in the modern era. Egyptian regular forces did poorly against Yemeni irregulars in the 1960s. Syrians could only impose their will in Lebanon during the mid-1970s by the use of overwhelming weaponry and numbers. Iraqis showed ineptness against an Iranian military ripped apart by revolutionary turmoil in the 1980s and could not win a three-decades-long war against the Kurds. The Arab military performance on both sides of the 1990 Kuwait war was mediocre. And the Arabs have done poorly in nearly all the military confrontations with Israel. Why this unimpressive record? There are many factors – economic, ideological, technical – but perhaps the most important has to do with culture and certain societal attributes which inhibit Arabs from producing an effective military force.

False starts
Including culture in strategic assessments has a poor legacy, for it has often been spun from an ugly brew of ignorance, wishful thinking, and mythology. Thus, the US Army in the 1930s evaluated the Japanese national character as lacking originality and drew the unwarranted conclusion that that country would be permanently disadvantaged in technology. Hitler dismissed the United States as a mongrel society and consequently underestimated the impact of America’s entry into the war. American strategists assumed that the pain threshold of the North Vietnamese approximated our own and that the air bombardment of the North would bring it to its knees. Three days of aerial attacks were thought to be all the Serbs could withstand; in fact, seventy-eight days were needed.

As these examples suggest, when culture is considered in calculating the relative strengths and weaknesses of opposing forces, it tends to lead to wild distortions, especially when it is a matter of understanding why states unprepared for war enter into combat flushed with confidence. The temptation is to impute cultural attributes to the enemy state that negate its superior numbers or weaponry. Or the opposite: to view the potential enemy through the prism of one’s own cultural norms.

It is particularly dangerous to make facile assumptions about abilities in warfare based on past performance, for societies evolve and so does the military subculture with it. The dismal French performance in the 1870 Franco-Prussian war led the German high command to an overly optimistic assessment prior to World War I. Then tenacity and courage of French soldiers in World War I lead everyone from Winston Churchill to the German high command vastly to overestimate the French army’s fighting abilities. Israeli generals underestimated the Egyptian army of 1973 based on Egypt’s hapless performance in the 1967 war.

Culture is difficult to pin down. It is not synonymous with an individual’s race nor ethnic identity. The history of warfare makes a mockery of attempts to assign rigid cultural attributes to individuals – as the military histories of the Ottoman and Roman empires illustrate. In both cases it was training, discipline, esprit, and élan which made the difference, not the individual soldiers’ origin. The highly disciplined and effective Roman legions, for example, recruited from throughout the Roman Empire, and the elite Ottoman Janissaries (slave soldiers) were Christians forcibly recruited as boys from the Balkans.

The role of culture
These problems notwithstanding, culture does need to be taken into account. Indeed, awareness of prior mistakes should make it possible to assess the role of cultural factors in warfare. John Keegan, the eminent historian of warfare, argues that culture is a prime determinant of the nature of warfare. In contrast to the usual manner of European warfare, which he terms “face to face,” Keegan depicts the early Arab armies in the Islamic era as masters of evasion, delay, and indirection. Examining Arab warfare in this century leads to the conclusion that the Arabs remain more successful in insurgent, or political, warfare – what T. E. Lawrence termed “winning wars without battles.” Even the much-lauded Egyptian crossing of the Suez in 1973 at its core entailed a masterful deception plan. It may well be that these seemingly permanent attributes result from a culture that engenders subtlety, indirection, and dissimulation in personal relationships.

Along these lines, Kenneth Pollock concludes his exhaustive study of Arab military effectiveness by noting that “certain patterns of behaviour fostered by the dominant Arab culture were the most important factors contributing to the limited military effectiveness of Arab armies and air forces from 1945 to 1991.” These attributes included over-centralization, discouraging initiative, lack of flexibility, manipulation of information, and the discouragement of leadership at the junior officer level. The barrage of criticism levelled at Samuel Huntington’s notion of a “clash of civilizations” in no way lessens the vital point he made – that however much the grouping of peoples by religion and culture rather than political or economic divisions offends academics who propound a world defined by class, race, and gender, it is a reality, one not diminished by modern communications.

But how does one integrate the study of culture into military training? At present, it has hardly any role. Paul M. Belbutowski, a scholar and former member of the US Delta Force, succinctly stated a deficiency in our own military education system: “Culture, comprised of all that is vague and intangible, is not generally integrated into strategic planning except at the most superficial level.” And yet it is precisely “all that is vague and intangible” that defines low-intensity conflicts. The Vietnamese communists did not fight the war the United States had trained for, nor did the Chechens and Afghans fight the war the Russians prepared for. This entails far more than simply retooling weaponry and retraining soldiers. It requires an understanding of the cultural mythology, history, attitude toward time, etc.; and it demands a more substantial investment in time and money than a bureaucratic organization is likely to authorize.

Mindful of walking through a minefield of past errors and present cultural sensibilities, I offer some assessments of the role of culture in the military training of Arabic-speaking officers. I confine myself principally to training for two reasons:

• First, I observed much training but only one combat campaign (the Jordanian Army against the Palestine Liberation Organization in 1970).
• Secondly, armies fight as they train. Troops are conditioned by peacetime habits, policies, and procedures; they do not undergo a sudden metamorphosis that transforms civilians in uniform into warriors. General George Patton was fond of relating the story about Julius Caesar, who “in the winter time. . . so trained his legions in all that became soldiers and so habituated them to the proper performance of their duties, that when in the spring he committed them to battle against the Gauls, it was not necessary to give them orders, for they knew what to do and how to do it.”

Information as power
In every society information is a means of making a living or wielding power, but Arabs husband information and hold it especially tightly. US trainers have often been surprised over the years by the fact that information provided to key personnel does not get much further than them. Having learned to perform some complicated procedure, an Arab technician knows that he is invaluable so long as he is the only one in a unit to have that knowledge; once he dispenses it to others he no longer is the only font of knowledge and his power dissipates. This explains the commonplace hoarding of manuals, books, training pamphlets, and other training or logistics literature.

On one occasion, an American mobile training team working with armour in Egypt at long last received the operators’ manuals that had laboriously been translated into Arabic. The American trainers took the newly minted manuals straight to the tank park and distributed them to the tank crew. Right behind them, the company commander, a graduate of the armour school at Fort Knox and specialized courses at the Aberdeen Proving Grounds ordnance school, promptly collected the manuals from those crew. Questioned why he did this, the commander said that there was no point in giving them to the drivers because enlisted men could not read. In point of fact, he did not want enlisted men to have an independent source of knowledge. Being the only person who could explain the fire control instrumentation or bore sight artillery weapons brought prestige and attention.

In military terms this means that very little cross-training is accomplished and that, for instance in a tank crew, the gunners, loaders and drivers might be proficient in their jobs but are not prepared to fill in should one become a casualty. Not understanding one another’s jobs also inhibits a smoothly functioning crew. At a higher level it means that there is no depth in technical proficiency.

Education problems
Training tends to be unimaginative, cut and dried, and not challenging. Because the Arab educational system is predicated on rote memorization, officers have a phenomenal ability to commit vast amounts of knowledge to memory. The learning system tends to consist of on-high lectures, with students taking voluminous notes and being examined on what they were told. (It also has interesting implications for a foreign instructor, whose credibility, for example, is diminished if he must resort to a book.)

The emphasis on memorization has a price, and that is in diminished ability to reason or engage in analysis based upon general principles. Thinking outside the box is not encouraged; doing so in public can damage a career. Instructors are not challenged and neither, in the end, are students.

Head-to-head competition among individuals is generally avoided, at least openly, for it means that someone wins and someone else loses, with the loser humiliated. This taboo has particular import when a class contains mixed ranks. Education is in good part sought as a matter of personal prestige, so Arabs in US military schools take pains to ensure that the ranking member, according to military position or social class, scores the highest marks in the class. Often this leads to “sharing answers” in class – often in a rather overt manner or in junior officers concealing scores higher than those of their superiors.

American military instructors dealing with Middle Eastern students learn to ensure that, before directing any question to a student in a classroom situation, particularly if he is an officer, the student does possess the correct answer. If this is not assured, the officer may feel he has been deliberately set up for public humiliation. In the often-paranoid environment of Arab political culture, he may then become an enemy of the instructor, and his classmates will become apprehensive about their also being singled out for humiliation – and learning becomes impossible.

Officers vs. soldiers
Arab junior officers are well trained on the technical aspects of their weapons and tactical know-how, but not in leadership, a subject given little attention. For example, as General Sa`d ash-Shazli, the Egyptian chief of staff, noted in his assessment of the army he inherited prior to the 1973 war, they were not trained to seize the initiative or volunteer original concepts or new ideas. Indeed, leadership may be the greatest weakness of Arab training systems. This problem results from two main factors: a highly accentuated class system bordering on a caste system, and lack of a non-commissioned-officer development programme.

Most Arab armies treat enlisted soldiers like sub-humans. When the winds in Egypt one day carried biting sand particles from the desert during a demonstration for visiting US dignitaries, I watched as a contingent of soldiers marched in and formed a single rank to shield the Americans; Egyptian soldiers, in other words, are used on occasion as nothing more than a windbreak. The idea of taking care of one’s men is found only among the most elite units in the Egyptian military. On a typical weekend, officers in units stationed outside Cairo will get in their cars and drive off to their homes, leaving the enlisted men to fend for themselves by trekking across the desert to a highway and flag down buses or trucks to get to the Cairo rail system. Garrison cantonments have no amenities for soldiers.

The same situation, in various degrees, exists elsewhere in the Arabic-speaking countries – less so in Jordan, even more so in Iraq and Syria. The young draftees who make up the vast bulk of the Egyptian army hate military service for good reason and will do almost anything, including self-mutilation, to avoid it. In Syria the wealthy buy exemptions or, failing that, are assigned to non-combatant organizations. As a young Syrian told me, his musical skills came from his assignment to a Syrian army band where he learned to play an instrument. In general, the militaries of the Fertile Crescent enforce discipline by fear; in countries where a tribal system still is in force, such as Saudi Arabia, the innate egalitarianism of the society mitigates against fear as the prime mover, so a general lack of discipline pervades.

The social and professional gap between officers and enlisted men is present in all armies, but in the United States and other Western forces, the non-commissioned officer (NCO) corps bridges it. Indeed, a professional NCO corps has been critical for the American military to work at its best; as the primary trainers in a professional army, NCOs are critical to training programmes and to the enlisted men’s sense of unit esprit. Most of the Arab world either has no NCO corps or it is non-functional, severely handicapping the military’s effectiveness.

With some exceptions, NCOs are considered in the same low category as enlisted men and so do not serve as a bridge between enlisted men and officers. Officers instruct but the wide social gap between enlisted man and officer tends to make the learning process perfunctory, formalized, and ineffective. The show-and-tell aspects of training are frequently missing because officers refuse to get their hands dirty and prefer to ignore the more practical aspects of their subject matter, believing this below their social station. A dramatic example of this occurred during the Gulf War when a severe windstorm blew down the tents of Iraqi officer prisoners of war. For three days they stayed in the wind and rain rather than be observed by enlisted prisoners in a nearby camp working with their hands.

The military price for this is very great. Without the cohesion supplied by NCOs, units tend to disintegrate in the stress of combat. This is primarily a function of the fact that the enlisted soldiers simply do not have trust in their officers. Once officers depart the training areas, training begins to fall apart as soldiers begin drifting off. An Egyptian officer once explained to me that the Egyptian army’s catastrophic defeat in 1967 resulted from a lack of cohesion within units. The situation, he said, had only marginally improved in 1973. Iraqi prisoners in 1991 showed a remarkable fear of and enmity toward their officers.

Decision-making and responsibility
Decisions are highly centralized, made at a very high level and rarely delegated. Rarely does an officer make a critical decision on his own; instead, he prefers the safe course of being identified as industrious, intelligent, loyal – and compliant. Bringing attention to oneself as an innovator or someone prone to making unilateral decisions is a recipe for trouble. As in civilian life, conforming is the overwhelming societal norm; the nail that stands up gets hammered down. Decisions are made and delivered from on high, with very little lateral communication. Orders and information flow from top to bottom; they are not to be reinterpreted, amended, or modified in any way.

US trainers often experience frustration obtaining a decision from a counterpart, not realizing that the Arab officer lacks the authority to make the decision – a frustration amplified by the Arab’s understandable reluctance to admit that he lacks that authority. This author has several times seen decisions that could have been made at the battalion level concerning such matters as class meeting times and locations referred for approval to the ministry of defence. All of which has led American trainers to develop a rule of thumb: a sergeant first class in the US Army has as much authority as a colonel in an Arab army.

Methods of instruction and subject matter are dictated by higher authorities. Unit commanders have very little to say about these affairs. The politicized nature of the Arab militaries means that political factors weigh heavily and frequently override military considerations. Officers with initiative and a predilection for unilateral action pose a threat to the regime. This can be seen not just at the level of national strategy but in every aspect of military operations and training. If Arab militaries became less politicized and more professional in preparation for the 1973 war with Israel, once the fighting ended, old habits returned. Now, an increasingly bureaucratized military establishment weighs in as well. A veteran of the Pentagon turf wars will feel like a kindergartner when he encounters the rivalries that exist in the Arab military headquarters.

Taking responsibility for a policy, operation, status, or training programme rarely occurs. US trainers can find it very frustrating when they repeatedly encounter Arab officers placing blame for unsuccessful operations or programmes on the US equipment or some other outside source. A high rate of non-operational US equipment is blamed on a “lack of spare parts” – pointing a finger at an unresponsive US supply system despite the fact that American trainers can document ample supplies arriving in country and disappearing in a moribund supply system. (It should be added, and is important to do so, that this criticism was never caustic or personal and was often so indirect and politely delivered that it wasn’t until after a meeting that oblique references were understood.) This imperative works even at the most exalted levels. During the Kuwait war, Iraqi forces took over the town of Khafji in northeast Saudi Arabia after the Saudis had evacuated the place. General Khalid bin Sultan, the Saudi ground forces commander, requested a letter from General Norman Schwarzkopf, stating it was the US general who ordered an evacuation from the Saudi town. And in his account of the Khafji battle, General Bin Sultan predictably blames the Americans for the Iraqi occupation of the town. In reality the problem was that the light Saudi forces in the area left the battlefield. The Saudis were in fact outgunned and outnumbered by the Iraqi unit approaching Khafji but Saudi pride required that foreigners be blamed.

As for equipment, a vast cultural gap exists between the US and Arab maintenance and logistics systems. The Arab difficulties with US equipment is not, as sometimes simplistically believed, a matter of “Arabs don’t do maintenance,” but a vast cultural gap. The American concept of a weapons system does not convey easily. A weapons system brings with it specific maintenance and logistics procedures, policies, and even a philosophy, all of them based on US culture, with its expectations of a certain educational level, sense of small unit responsibility, tool allocation, and doctrine.

The US equipment and its maintenance are predicated on a concept of repair at the lowest level and therefore require delegation of authority. Tools that would be allocated to a US battalion (a unit of some 600-800 personnel) would most likely be found at a much higher level – probably two or three echelons higher – in an Arab army. The expertise, initiative and, most importantly, the trust indicated by delegation of responsibility to a lower level are rare. Without the needed tools, spare parts, or expertise available to keep equipment running, and loathe to report bad news to his superiors, the unit commander looks for scapegoats.

All this explains why I many times heard in Egypt that US weaponry is “too delicate”. I have observed many in-country US survey teams: invariably, hosts make the case for acquiring the most modern of military hardware and do everything to avoid issues of maintenance, logistics, and training. They obfuscate and mislead to such an extent that US teams, no matter how earnest their sense of mission, find it nearly impossible to help. More generally, Arab reluctance to be candid about training deficiencies makes it extremely difficult for foreign advisors properly to support instruction or assess training needs.

Combined arms operations
A lack of cooperation is most apparent in the failure of all Arab armies to succeed at combined arms operations. A regular Jordanian army infantry company, for example is man-for-man as good as a comparable Israeli company; at battalion level, however, the coordination required for combined arms operations, with artillery, air, and logistics support, is simply absent. Indeed, the higher the echelon, the greater the disparity. This results from infrequent combined arms training; when it does take place, it is intended to impress visitors (which it does – the dog-and-pony show is usually done with uncommon gusto and theatrical talent) rather than provide real training.

Three underlying factors further impede coordination necessary for combined operations.
• First, the well-known lack of trust among Arabs in anyone outside their own families adversely affects offensive operations. In a culture in which almost every sphere of human endeavor, including business and social relationships, is based on a family structure, this basic mistrust of others is particularly costly in the stress of battle. Offensive action, at base, consists of fire and manoeuvre. The manoeuvre element must be confident that supporting units or arms are providing covering fire. If there is a lack of trust in that support, getting troops moving forward against dug-in defenders is possible only by officers getting out front and leading, something that has not been a characteristic of Arab leadership. (Exceptions to this pattern are limited to elite units, which throughout the Arab world have the same duty – to protect the regime rather than the country.)

• Second, the complex mosaic system of peoples creates additional problems for training, as rulers in the Middle East make use of the sectarian and tribal loyalties to maintain power. The `Alawi minority controls Syria, east bankers control Jordan, Sunnis control Iraq, and Nejdis control Saudi Arabia. This has direct implications for the military, where sectarian considerations affect assignments and promotions. Some minorities (such as the Circassians in Jordan or the Druze in Syria) tie their well-being to the ruling elite and perform critical protection roles; others (such as the Shi`a of Iraq) are excluded from the officer corps. In any case, the careful assignment of officers based on sectarian considerations works against assignments based on merit.

The same lack of trust operates at the inter-state level, where Arab armies exhibit very little trust of each other, and with good reason. The blatant lie Gamal Abdel Nasser told King Husayn in June 1967 to get him into the war against Israel – that the Egyptian air force was over Tel Aviv (when the vast majority of planes had been destroyed) – was a classic example of deceit. Sadat’s disingenuous approach to the Syrians to entice them to enter the war in October 1973 was another (he told them that the Egyptians were planning total war, a deception that included using a second set of operational plans intended only for Syrian eyes). With this sort of history, it is no wonder that there is very little cross or joint training among Arab armies and very few command exercises. During the 1967 war, for example, not a single Jordanian liaison officer was stationed in Egypt, nor were the Jordanians forthcoming with the Egyptian command.

• Third, Middle Eastern rulers routinely rely on balance-of-power techniques to maintain their authority. They use competing organizations, duplicate agencies, and coercive structures dependent upon the ruler’s whim. This makes building any form of personal power base difficult, if not impossible, and keeps the leadership apprehensive and off-balance, never secure in its careers or social position. The same applies within the military; a powerful chairman of the joint chiefs is inconceivable.

Joint commands are paper constructs that have little actual function. Leaders look at joint commands, joint exercises, combined arms, and integrated staffs very cautiously for all Arab armies are double-edged swords. One edge points toward the external enemy and the other toward the capital. Land forces are at once a regime-maintenance force and threat to the same regime. This situation is most clearly seen in Saudi Arabia, where the land forces and aviation are under the minister of defence, Prince Sultan, while the National Guard is under Prince Abdullah, the deputy prime minister and crown prince. In Egypt, the Central Security Forces balance the army. In Iraq and Syria, the Republican Guard does the balancing.
No Arab ruler will allow combined operations or training to become routine, for these create familiarity, soften rivalries, erase suspicions, and eliminate the fragmented, competing organizations that enable rulers to play off rivals against one another.

Politicians actually create obstacles to maintain fragmentation. For example, obtaining aircraft from the air force for army airborne training, whether it is a joint exercise or a simple administrative request for support of training, must generally be coordinated by the heads of services at the ministry of defence; if a large number of aircraft are involved, this probably requires presidential approval. Military coups may have gone out of style for now, but the fear of them remains strong. Any large-scale exercise of land forces is always a matter of concern to the government and is closely observed, particularly if live ammunition is being used. In Saudi Arabia a complex system of clearances required from area military commanders and provincial governors, all of whom have differing command channels to secure road convoy permission, obtaining ammunition, and conducting exercises, means that in order for a coup to work it would require a massive amount of loyal conspirators. The system has proven to be coup-proof, and there is no reason to believe it will not work well into the future.
Security and paranoia

Arab regimes classify virtually everything vaguely military. Information the US military routinely publishes (about promotions, transfers, names of unit commanders, and unit designations) is top secret in Arabic-speaking countries. To be sure, this does make it more difficult for the enemy to construct an accurate order of battle, but it also feeds the divisive and compartmentalized nature of the military forces. The obsession with security can reach ludicrous lengths. Prior to the 1973 war, Sadat was surprised to find that within two weeks of the date he had ordered the armed forces be ready for war, his minister of war, General Muhammad Sadiq, had failed to inform his immediate staff of the order. Should a war, Sadat wondered, be kept secret from the very people expected to fight it?

One can expect to have an Arab counterpart or key contact changed without warning and with no explanation as to his sudden absence. This might well be simply a transfer a few doors away, but the vagueness of it all leaves foreigners imagining dire scenarios – that could be true. And it is best not to inquire too much; advisors or trainers who seem overly inquisitive may find their access to host military information or facilities limited.

The presumed close US-Israel relationship, thought to be operative at all levels, aggravates and complicates this penchant for secrecy. Arabs believe that the most mundane details about them are somehow transmitted to the Mossad via a secret hotline. This explains why US advisor with Arab forces is likely to be asked early and often about his opinion on the “Palestine problem,” then subjected to monologues on the assumed Jewish domination of the United States.

Indifference to safety
There is a general laxness with respect to safety measures and a seeming carelessness and indifference to training accidents, many of which could have been prevented by minimal safety precautions. To the (perhaps overly) safety-conscious Americans, Arab societies appear indifferent to casualties and to the importance of training safety. There are a number of explanations for this. Some would point to the inherent fatalism within Islam, and certainly anyone who has spent considerable time in Arab taxis would lend credence to that theory; but perhaps the reason has less to do with religion than with political culture. As any military veteran knows, the ethos of a unit is set at the top; or, as the old saying has it, units do those things well that the boss cares about.

When the top political leadership displays a complete lack of concern for the welfare of its soldiers, such attitudes percolate down through the ranks. Exhibit A was the betrayal of Syrian troops fighting Israel in the Golan in 1967: having withdrawn its elite units, the Syrian government knowingly broadcast the falsehood that Israeli troops had captured the town of Kuneitra, which would have put them behind the largely conscript Syrian army still in position. The leadership took this step to pressure the great powers to impose a truce, though it led to a panic by the Syrian troops and the loss of the Golan Heights.

Conclusion
It would be difficult to exaggerate the cultural gulf separating American and Arab military cultures. In every significant area, American military advisors find students who enthusiastically take in their lessons and then resolutely fail to apply them. The culture they return to – the culture of their own armies in their own countries – defeats the intentions with which they took leave of their American instructors. Arab officers are not concerned about the welfare and safety of their men. The Arab military mind does not encourage initiative on the part of junior officers, or any officers for that matter. Responsibility is avoided and deflected, not sought and assumed. Political paranoia and operational hermeticism, rather than openness and team effort, are the rules of advancement (and survival) in the Arab military establishments. These are not issues of genetics, of course, but matters of historical and political culture.

When they had an influence on certain Arab military establishments, the Soviets strongly reinforced their clients’ own cultural traits. Like that of the Arabs, the Soviets’ military culture was driven by political fears bordering on paranoia. The steps taken to control the sources (real or imagined) of these fears, such as a rigidly centralized command structure, were readily understood by Arab political and military elites. The Arabs, too, felt an affinity for the Soviet officer class’s contempt for ordinary soldiers and its distrust of a well-developed, well-appreciated, well-rewarded NCO corps.
Arab political culture is based on a high degree of social stratification, very much like that of the defunct Soviet Union and very much unlike the upwardly mobile, meritocratic, democratic United States. Arab officers do not see any value in sharing information among themselves, let alone with their men. In this they follow the example of their political leaders, who not only withhold information from their own allies, but routinely deceive them.

Training in Arab armies reflects this: rather than prepare as much as possible for the multitude of improvised responsibilities that are thrown up in the chaos of battle, Arab soldiers, and their officers, are bound in the narrow functions assigned them by their hierarchy. That this renders them less effective on the battlefield, let alone that it places their lives at greater risk, is scarcely of concern, whereas, of course, these two issues are dominant in the American military culture and are reflected in American military training.

Change is unlikely to come until it occurs in the larger Arab political culture, although the experience of other societies (including our own) suggests that the military can have a democratizing influence on the larger political culture, as officers bring the lessons of their training first into their professional environment, then into the larger society. It obviously makes a big difference, however, when the surrounding political culture is not only avowedly democratic (as was the Soviet Union’s), but functionally so.
Until Arab politics begin to change at fundamental levels, Arab armies, whatever the courage or proficiency of individual officers and men, are unlikely to acquire the range of qualities which modern fighting forces require for success on the battlefield. For these qualities depend on inculcating respect, trust, and openness among the members of the armed forces at all levels, and this is the marching music of modern warfare that Arab armies, no matter how much they emulate the corresponding steps, do not want to hear. n

– Courtesy: American Diplomacy

ABOUT THE AUTHOR
The author, a retired US Army colonel, draws upon many years of firsthand observation of Arabs in training to reach conclusions about the ways in which they go into combat. His findings derive from personal experience with Arab military establishments in the capacity of US military attache and security assistance officer, observer officer with the British-officered Trucial Oman Scouts (the security force in the emirates prior to the establishment of the UAE), as well as some thirty years of study of the Middle East.

Admin: Edited for visual coherency. Just a thought, make the articles smaller in future as most people may give up reading it due to length.



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-20-April at 8:53am | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

Islamic civilisation : Modern progress in the field of satellites

As-salam alaikum,

In the modern Islamic world, we are so accustomed to & upset by our relative failure, that some of us are excessively self-critical to a near pathological level. It is one thing waking ourselves up & motivating by trying to catch up by humiliation, but there is the risk of thinking that the situation is so dire that human beings can't make a difference ! Remember the hadith about Allah (s.w.t.) not changing the condition of a people until they themselves first attempt to try to change it.

I thought I would cheer us up by showing some of the recent successes

In the western universities, contrary to stereotypes, one is often quite surprised at the number of Arab & Muslim PhD students, especially in the fields of science. A glimmer of hope. It is strange how many Muslims I have met that are scientists in developing missile & aeronautical systems. The stealth bomber had quite a surprising number of Muslims involved. The Muslim world contrary to stereotypes of misogynistic Afghans, has a favourable ratio of the fair gender studying in universities .

The field of satellite technology is vitally important, it is a virgin undiscovered land full of promise, just like the New World. We cannot afford to be left behind this time. If the following link is representative, it augurs well for the Ummah, insha'Allah.

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?c=Article_C& ;cid=1176802153354&pagename=Zone-English-HealthScience%2 FHSELayout

 

    



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-22-April at 1:00pm | IP Logged Quote imranj

Salam,

Interesting, but that is not enough i say, there should be a revolution, but that can only come in the right conditions.

Ashfaq, can you tell what should be those conditions.?

Did you know, we can readily harness the work done by the western world just as they had done hundreds of years ago when the Islamic Civilization was on its peak.



__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-22-April at 2:39pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum Imran,

WHAT ! Revolution !

I'm not a Frenchie, dastardly people always revolting against the state . Excuse me while I stand up & salute, whilst reciting the British national anthem www.farmersboys.com/music/Misc%20Rule%20Brittania.mp3 . (P.s. I don't want to be sent packing to any type of Kala Pani, Belmarsh or Gitmo etc!)

Sorry humour aside, getting back to your point revolution *cough*

As you so rightly said >>> "Did you know, we can readily harness the work done by the western world just as they had done hundreds of years ago when the Islamic Civilization was on its peak."

I agree .

I think the current period of history is the "Information Age", & so we need an "Information Revolution"!

The Ummat-an-Nabi needs safety of person & honour. They need the universal provision/halal way of obtaining a minimum level of clothes, shelter, energy & water. I think only the state can ensure that.

Parallel to that, we must concentrate on education & communications. I personally believe that the infrastructure of the state as built up by the Victorian British is a good example, with the addition of broadband/mobile/satellite technologies. In order to that we must prioritise the teaching of the various branches of engineering above all "secular" professions except health. 

 Next comes specialist translating institutions attached to universities for translating from the dominant technological languages into the vernacular e.g. English, German, French, Japanese, Mandarin, Korean & Hebrew.

We should translate into the vernacular language of the country all basic simplified texts, concentrating on "religious" works, language, mathematics & science. Next the textbooks should be digitised & put on the internet. Each area of a certain population size should have multiple cheap PC cabins in each madressah.

After that concentrate on building up commerce internally & externally. Dar'ulooms (Universities) & madressahs (schools) should be heavily funded. Libraries & a book culture should be nurtured. The volcanic excess energies of a young population should be a balance of mind/body/soul directed towards creative pursuits (mind), physical sports (body) & "Sufi" ibadat/meditation in idyllic surroundings (soul).   



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-22-April at 2:56pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

We could also maintain a database of people with certain skills; when they are free e.g. senior citizens, they could mentor/teach at a central community centre e.g. madressah (school).

The convergence of mobile phone & internet P.C. technologies with the use of satellites is potentially a seismic change to benefit mankind, insha'Allah. People could be taught remotely without the need for building expensive physical infrastructure. The Third world could rapidly catch up with the First world. The East could reverse the situation when the West caught up & overtook the East, using the information/communications technology of Gutenberg's printing press !    



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-22-April at 3:08pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

The Muslims must return to the spirit of Baghdad's Bayt al-Hikmah & Al Andalus - IQRA.

The East is held back by its culture of fearing innovation & fostering individuality & creativity.

Didactism (rote-learning parrot fashion) is perfect for building up the foundation of education. However past that point of inertia, to break the glass ceiling, a society must foster "blue sky" lateral creative thinking. That is the heart of R&D, otherwise society stagnates. 

In order to foster a creative innovative culture children & society need to become lovers of knowledge for its own sake. We have to get over the idea of short-term utilitarianism. In universities supposedly sterile theoretical knowledge often leads only later to applied knowledge.



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-22-April at 3:18pm | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum,

Generally western society has the concept of general knowledge, while the East only learns things if there is an immediate benefit.

If one observes the English of all classes, they love doing crosswords, Sudoku & quizzes as leisure activities.

It is a gentle form of auto-didactism. I cannot be but impressed by that truly Islamic behaviour. No wonder Allah rewards them, because they are obeying him without knowing it. 



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-23-April at 3:15am | IP Logged Quote imranj

People in West get education for knowledge and advancement, and in Indian and other eastern place, we get educated for one aim, money.

Although they also want to make money, but they use the knowledge acquired to make money and also open there mind to new possibilities and advancements.

Yup, Sudoku is a challenging mental game. And very addictive also.



__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-23-April at 3:21am | IP Logged Quote imranj

While studying in British and American universities, i was asked not to take anything fed by the professors. One can challenge the professor's upon anything that we may disagree upon, but what you argue/ debate should be sound, not just any nonsense. Critical analysis was encourage, rational reasoning.

While in Indian education system especially in school i was all spoon fed from KG to 12th grade, mug up all the subject and then write what ever comes to your mind, so it was more of memory performance rather than analysis of what you have learned.

Similar to cut in classes and paste that in exams.

Imagine doing all this in India, you would be called a bacha and asked to leave.



__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-23-April at 3:23am | IP Logged Quote imranj

I have already put forward my self of science, geography, history , basic maths, and computers for Makhuwala school.

 

 



__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-23-April at 3:27am | IP Logged Quote imranj

In ref to point : Posted: 22-April-2007 at 6:39pm

Look at the chinese they borrow the techology from here and there, steal some, and rest they use their scientist to develop something better or equal to what they got and they are nicely catching up with Russia and USA in space techologies.

Why reinvent the wheel when you already got one, unless the new wheel makes the car fly.



__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 
Ashfaq Bahman
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar
AAA member

Joined: 2005-22-May
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 2113
Posted: 2007-23-April at 3:44am | IP Logged Quote Ashfaq Bahman

As-salam alaikum Imran,

I am impressed with your thinking, a level of level-headed analysis & debate without childish emotionalism, now I know why .

I agree with what you have said, now we have to spread that traditional Islamic-derived outlook far & wide. The only way to do that is education & becoming teachers, or employing like-minded "qualified" teachers. It looks like that your inclinations are already in the right direction .

Funny, it goes back to one of Hansot's famous & venerable traditions - teaching .



__________________
Burden of proof is upon the attacker.Illogical=Devoid of logic. Scholar's ink vs shaheed's blood. The 5 senses the heart & mind to apply FURQAN.
Allahu'Alim. Allah Hafiz from Ashfaq Bahman Digaswala.
Back to Top View Ashfaq Bahman's Profile Search for other posts by Ashfaq Bahman
 
imranj
Hansoti
Hansoti
Avatar

Joined: 2005-23-June
Location: United Arab Emirates
Posts: 656
Posted: 2007-23-April at 4:13am | IP Logged Quote imranj

Thank you for your kind words, but don't tell your queen :) Her Majesty. She is bit upset after her grandsons break up drama.

__________________
The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Remember more often the destroyer of pleasures – death”

Back to Top View imranj's Profile Search for other posts by imranj
 

Page of 2 Next >>
  Post ReplyPost New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You can vote in polls in this forum



This page was generated in 0.1719 seconds.

Send Site Comments / Suggestions to webmaster@hansot.com
© 1996 - 2007 Hansot On The Net